Page One (remarks 1-10)
Ancient Greek
The Art of Giving Good Thread
On Neil's Role as 'Consultant' for The
Dreaming
Shira vs. the Troll
How to Combat Co$ Questions 101
Neil Sound Clips
Work Made For Hire
Matthew the Raven's Origins
Smoke & Mirrors, US vs. UK Editions
Making Newcomers Feel Welcome
Ancient Greek - Hing-Cheung Li
Morpheus was the son of Hypnos, the god of sleep. Morpheus has two other brothers. Morpheus' job was to let people dream of people. He appeared as human beings in our dreams. One of the brothers of Morpheus "let people dream" about animals and other living things. The other brother "make us dream" about all the non-living things.
Oneiros was the son of goddess of the night (forgot her name) and he was the god of dreams in ancient greek mythology.
The Art of Giving Good Thread - Lady Miss Tree
Like in comedy, timing your post is everything. If everyone is focused on one or two other big threads, they ain't gonna respond to yours. Wait for a lull in the conversation. It will happen. We will shut up eventually. You just have to be patient.
Secondly, you must ask the right question. Make it sufficiently broad and appealing so that anyone can respond. Ask a narrow question, get a narrow answer. Ask a stupid question, get a metaphorical boot up the bum. ;> Things
that are emotional are good--everyone can have a go at that (and likes are better than dislikes because dislikes just make people cranky). General type questions get broad (and very interesting) answers.
Thirdly, structure your post. Ask your question, answer it, then ask it again. People read your question, see your response and then your question again. They will either respond to your answer, or your question.
Works an absolute dream (pun intended) for me. (Can you tell that do a lot of writing and editing for a living?) And you thought I just posted stuff like that off the top of my head... ;>
On Neil's Role as 'Consultant' for the Dreaming - Caitlin R. Kiernan
Basically, it means we don't do anything he feels is inconsistent with the characters as written in THE SANDMAN, or anything he thinks sucks, and so forth. My script ideas often grow out of conversations with Neil, and then he has approval of the formal proposal. Then, once the script is finished (first draft), it goes to my editor, Shelly Roeberg, who, in turn, passes along a copy to Neil (there have been a few occassions where I've sent scripts to Neil first, if I happened to be especially nervous about them). Once Neil has read the scripts, he passes along his comments and/or corrections to me or Shelly or both of us. I almost always make the changes he requests (there have been *very* rare instances where we've disagreed).
Neil also has a lot of say on art and has been instrumental in helping us find pencilers and inkers. Art changes are sometimes made at Neil's request.
Having said this, I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that Neil is a sort of back-seat writer for THE DREAMING; he isn't. He is exactly what he's listed as: consultant and creator. He helps keep us on track.
To my dear Anonymous friend:
So... you said things about how "Neil Gaiman is a two-bit hack that got lucky" and how "He just copies other peoples ideas and then paints them up a wee bit and passes them off as his own." You also state that "This guy makes me sick."
And that doesn't make you a troll? Well, maybe it doesn't, but you didn't only say that you "don't think that he's a writing God." You said other things as well.
Now, dahling, if you have such a problem with Neil Gaiman, why are you posting to this list in the first place? I mean... it *is* a fan group for Neil Gaiman, and as far as I know, fan groups are for fans... meaning people who appreciate the person's work. So: basically, why post here if you don't even like Neil's writings?
Of course, this is just *my* view, and what would I know? I'm only 13...
How to Combat Co$ Questions 101 - NightWalker
This, fortunately, is someone wishing information (the answer is 'No, he's not.' by the way)...not doing the 'If X is a X, then we should burn X's stuff blahblahblah' bullshit that makes me track down domain registrations and kill people.
In the former situation, stating the answer of 'No, X is not X, it's just a dumb rumor' (see Tree's post for an excellent example) is simple enough. If they need more information, give it (such as allusions to Jewish upbringing in stories, etc.)...and it always helps to add the '...and it's X's business and privacy anyway' afterwards. (I tend to add the 'I wouldn't care as long as X isn't preaching' part...)
If the situation is the latter, and the person is obviously an idiot, then you can do one of three things:
1) Ignore the poster, someone else will deal with it. (This is usually the most favorable).
2) Calmly respond that the person is obviously mistaken, needs to up their medication, and shouldn't believe rumors. (This is generally tolerated by the group, as long as it's nice).
3) Go hellbent on them...this includes copies of the hellish, flame-filled response both posted and e-mailed, consisting of no less than 2 pages of spewing, seething, vile verbiage, and repeated references to the subject's complete lack of mental ability. (This is not recommended, as it seems to alienate some people from your close circle of ThingieFriends...and lead to long threads of flamewars that people consistently bitch about (while complaining that they're not funny enough). Use only if extremely necessary, or if you think you can handle the backlash).
This concludes this session of instruction. Have a nice day.
Neil Sound Clips - transcribed and posted by Irena Ruden
Gay Man
"Um, how did you get your name? <laughter> Contrary to popular belief, actually, I was born with it. <laughter> My cousin Adam was actually once in a shop, a comic shop, for other people, in Newcastle, and he was just sort of browsing around there and he heard this guy up at the front of the shop explaining to the guy behind the counter very loudly, in the way that people are inclined to do in comic shops, they go up in front of the counter and talk very loudly about things they don't know anything about <laughter>, and this guy's explaining very loudly that "Neil Gaiman" is very very obviously a pen name designed to show sexual preferences. <laughter> Adam listened to this for a while, and walked up and showed him his bus pass. <laughter> And only once -- a couple of years ago, I was given a GLAD -- the Gay and Lesbian Antidefamation League -- Award for writing nice lesbians, and, um, went down to collect it, there's these famous people, and so forth, and it's the only time I've ever had a room full of people break into spontaneous applause at the correct pronunciation of my name, which I think they all thought was a political statement. <laughter> I didn't have the heart to say anything...Next Sandman
"Will Sandman ever continue, will there ever be a story as long as Sandman? Will it ever continue, no not really, although there are some other Sandman stories I didn't write, and stories I didn't tell, and maybe one day I'll tell some of them. Um, will there ever be a story as long as Sandman, probably not by me. <laughter> Yes, I'm sure by other people. Sandman took, I worked it out once, that in terms of actual script pages, not what you saw in comic pages, it's about 2000 comics pages long, and it was between 2 and 4 script pages per comics page, so it was somewhere in the 5 to 6 thousand page... thing... and I don't think I'd ever want to write another 6 thousand page story, it takes a long time."Not Wearing Black
"When was the last time I didn't wear black... the thing about wearing black is, it never began as a fashion statement. <laughter> Because of lack of imagination. <laughter> I used to hate getting up in the morning, and going "What shall I wear today..." and I thought well, hang on, I could just sort of... <weird background noise>... <laughter> They've landed... <laughter> I could just wear black. It's a great color, it goes with anything. As long as the other color is black, <laughter> it goes with it. And you don't have to worry about colors, and shades, and you don't have the sort of "well, is this a sort of browny kind of black, that can't go with that bluey kind of black." <laughter> You don't, it's just black. That's it. The last time I didn't wear black was in 1995? at a Comic Book Legal Defense Fund reading at midnight at the San Diego Comic Convention where I came in to do this reading for the Legal Defense Fund, and I thought, I gotta do something that'll make it memorable for them. And, many years ago, in a fit of, I don't know, probably some kind of brain hemhorrage, or something like that, I bought this bright red velvet waistcoat. <laughter> And it's absolutely marvelous, beautiful thing, I found it in this place in... I was actually looking for black jeans, and they had this bright red velvet, this sort of scarlet, blood red waistcoat, and I thought, that's great, I'm going to buy that, and I did. And then, of course, I didn't wear it... ever. So then I thought, I will make this Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, you know, memorable for everybody who is there, and stayed up till midnight, paid their money, so that was... well, I wore it... People... still talk about it. <laughter> They aren't believed when they talk about it. They say, you know, <he starts talking really really fast, sort of mumbling> "I saw Neil Gaiman wearing a red waistcoat," <laughter> and, they say, "you're a liar." <laughter>Various funny questions
"If you had turned out normal, what would be your likely career...<laughter, applause> Perfectly fair question. <laughter> Well, actually, what I'd love to be, if I wasn't a writer, I think I'd love to have a little ideas shop. <laughter> People would ring me up, and they'd say Hi, Neil. And I'd say, hi, and they'd say uh, I'm three quarters of the way through this novel, and I need, uh, something to happen. And I'd say "oh, what's happening so far?" And they'd say, well this has happened, and I'd say "ah, hmm... all right, tell you what... it'll cost you." <laughter> Or maybe I could be a freelance religion designer. People would phone me up and I'd say, I'd like a religion. And I'd say, well is this just for you, or is this for a group of people, and they'd say, oh, small group of us, and I'd say, okay, uh, do you want, uh... where do you stand on guilt? And they'd say oh we're very big on guilt. And I'd say you want tithes, tithing... yeah, yeah... deity? No, don't really want a deity, we want something sort of <couldn't catch it, sorry> and I'll say, okay, leave it with me, I'll have something for you... <couldn't catch it>"Does your mother know what you do for a living? <laugher>
Actually, I think she's a bit blurry on the details, <laughter> you know... I got this phone call from my sister once, after... she phoned me up, and she says, ‘Neil,' she says, ‘Mum just read Angels&Visitations.' And I said, ‘well, yeah... great! You know, I dedicated it to her... that's great!' And she says, ‘but Neil, one of the stories in there... <stage whispers> it's got a blow job in it!' <laughter> Well, it's too late now... <laughter> Actually, what she likes best, is when, you know, I get this phone call from her, ... her doctor's son is a big fan of mine, you see, so whenever she goes to the doctor <laughs as he talks> she always rings me up, she says I've just been hearing about what you've been doing, she says, ‘cause my doctor tells me...<laughter> She says, he says, that you've been in New Zealand, a while back Because her son <street noise drowns the next bit out>"What is the most annoying question you get asked at these events...
<laughter> In America for reasons I do not understand, it is boxers or briefs... <laughter> every single question I get asked, it's always boxers or briefs..."
Work Made For Hire - Martha Soukup (on why she was left out of the Sandman: Book of Dreams)
Any writer owns copyright to anything he or she writes, ethically and by the law of the land. What is normally sold in the publishing world is publication rights. For an original short story, a writer expects to sell First North American Serial Rights, if it's to a magazine, or just First North American Rights to an anthology, or non-exclusive publication rights to a reprint.
A contract may add extra fillips to this: it's not uncommon for an author to agree not to publish a story anywhere else for two years after the story sees print, say (usually with exceptions made for single-author collections or best-of-the-year anthologies). A magazine editor may buy a non-exclusive option to reprint the story in a future anthology made from the anthology, or to use it in foreign editions of the magazine; a book editor may buy non-exclusive rights to use the story in foreign editions of the anthology.
Comic books, by contrast, are traditionally work-made-for-hire (WMFH). The author is paid a lump sum for all rights to the script, and possibly to the characters and other innovations in the story. The writer may or may not be paid a royalty if the work sells well. (The writer of a regularly-sold story may or may not be paid a royalty, too. Details can always be messed with in contracts.)
A solicitation letter was sent out over Neil's signature (but he didn't write it--or, his co-editor didn't use the letter Neil wrote) based on Neil's agreement with the book publisher and DC: we were invited to submit stories for the Sandman anthology. We were granted the right to use DC-owned characters in the story. The stories would remain ours.
But DC changed the rules midstream. When we finally got publisher word about the stories Neil had accepted (it'd been maybe a year since he read and decided to buy mine), we got a letter from Neil's co-editor attached to a contract from DC. The letter said we had to sign the contract as a sort of release so we could get a contract from the book publisher, and a lot of writers just signed it without particularly reading it.
I read it. It was a WMFH contract. Imagine my surprise.
Now, you have to understand this little but significant detail about WMFH work: legally, WMFH is contracted for _before_ it is written. The buyer and writer agree to what's to be written. The writer agrees to write it, the buyer agrees to pay for it. (If it's not satisfactory when it's turned in, the buyer may pay a kill fee instead of the whole contracted fee.)
Regular freelance work, not for hire, is written on spec: speculatively. The writer writes it at her own risk, and shops it around to people who can take or leave it. In return for this she _owns_ it.
So here's this contract, and it says I have _agreed to write_ a story called "Waking Beauty" for the Sandman anthology. And that when I write it (which I did, a year before), it'll be the full property of DC Comics.They'll pay me some royalties if the book earns out. They'll pay me some utterly unspecified fees if the story is exploited in various ways, like being turned into a television episode or something. They'll let me have it reprinted in a best-of or my own collection, and they feel darn generous for that, but otherwise, it's theirs, they own it, that's it. They own the characters in the story, they own everything.
I couldn't believe this!
1) I was in possession of a solicitation letter over Neil's signature that solicited a story, without promising to buy it, and said nothing about WMFH. (Not Neil's fault--that was his understanding.)
2) I had written the story on spec, no guarantee they'd buy it. (Other stories had been rejected.)
3) I hardly used any DC-owned characters: the book's title dude appeared in a half-page cameo, but the rest of it was totally my kind of story, which is what Neil said he wanted from me anyway, just one that touched on the themes and the kind of fantasy he'd done in Sandman. I couldn't imagine anyone from DC wanting to exploit my original characters, but it didn't mean I wanted to give them away.
4) The payment was ten cents a word, which is, alas, rather good for a prose anthology, but no kind of compensation at all for WMFH. When you sell your baby instead of just renting its services, you get more compensation. By comparison, at the time, DC was paying new writers ~$2000 for a Vertigo comic-book script. My story would have sold for about $350. (I turned around and sold the story, minus the Sandman character's walk-on, for the same ten cents a word, First NA rights only.)
5) I would have perjured myself to sign the contract! I would have been declaring, contractually, that I'd agreed to produce a WMFH, and then written it, when in fact of course the story had been written long since, on spec. And I don't like lying in a contract. I sort of refuse to do it.
There you go. More Than You Needed To Know.
I tried to strike a compromise with DC, with Neil's backing: sell them the DC version of the story, retain rights to a version of the story rewritten (and it took almost no rewriting) to eliminate DC-owned characters or settings. But they said their lawyers wouldn't go for it (which could just mean, We don't want to). They did at least pay me a kill fee. Petty cash for them, but for a short-story writer, money.
Matthew the Raven's Origins - Poppy Z. & Rantz
PZB: If so, then was Matt Cable also in Swamp Thing before he became Matthew the raven?
R: Yes, and Matt Cable was married to Abby Cable (arcane) etc, etc, etc... I was re-reading the Wake collection and thinking that it was only in the dreaming series that the identity of Matthew the raven was revealed and then, there in the midst of the Wake, was a typical quiet little Neil hint that would pass you by if you weren't paying attention. In the Swamp Thing series written by Alan Moore, when Matt Cable died, he was drinking and driving, and as he drove, he passed road signs which read the night might make a man more brave/but not more sober/burma shave and as the last sign came up, Matt's car crashed and he died.R: Now, in the wake Matt is mouring Morpheus, mentioning that he gave Matthew a chance when he didn't deserve it after he died. And he mentions that he didn't live or die well, to which whoever he's talking to (can't remember if it was Lucien or Daniel) says 'ah yes, the night can make a man more brave...'
R: I sat up like a bolt and went 'holy fuck!' I had read both the ST collections and the Sandman stuff a couple of times and that was the first time I caught that. Very sneaky, very cool...
Smoke & Mirrors, US vs. UK Editions - Lady Miss Tree
[rummages around on Deja to find her original post on this very
topic--the hard cover version being the US version]
Here is the story listing (** = not in the hard cover version):
Reading the Entrails: A Rondel
An Introduction
Chivalry
Nicholas Was...
The Price
Troll Bridge
Don't Ask Jack
The Goldfish Pool and Other Stories
Eaten**
The White Road
Queen of Knives
The Facts in the Case of the Departure of Miss Finch**
Changes
The Daughter of Owls
Shoggoth's Old Peculiar
Virus
Looking For The Girl
Only the End of the World Again
Bay Wolf
15 Painted Cards from the Vampire Tarot**
We Can Get Them For You Wholesale
One Life, Furnished in Early Moorcock
Cold Colours
The Sweeper of Dreams
Foreign Parts
Vampire Sestina
Mouse
The Sea Change
How Do You Think It Feels**
When We Went To See the End of the World
Desert Wind
Tastings
In the End**
Babycakes
Murder Mysteries
Snow, Glass, Apples"
Making Newcomers Feel Welcome - Lucy Anne, Lady Miss Tree, Andromache and Shira
LA:
What do you think we should do to make newcomers feel comfortable enough to post here?LMT:
Other than what we do already? I'd propose not doing anything else. The reason that people like it here is because of how it works. We are friendly, we have an easily accessible FAQ and questionnaire, I don't think we need to do anything more to make people feel more welcome.Natalie makes a point later in this thread about how the tight-knittedness (I think I just invented a word) can be intimidating. I don't see how we can do anything about that. And I wouldn't want to. It's a matter of thingie hopefuls holding their nose, taking a deep breath and jumping in. They'll find the water is warm and there is plenty of room. As long as they don't splash everyone. The tight-knittedness is part of the package, and once you delurk and play, you have a chance to be a part of that.
I suppose it is easy for me to say that. I've been thingie-ing for a little while now (although I'm nowhere near the veteran some thingies are!) I can read the in-jokes on Michelle's page and get them. But I don't feel it is exclusive here or anything like that. And everyone has the opportunity to become part of the community. All they have to do is introduce themselves.
Andromache:
I've lurked on this group off and on for a couple of years now (depending on when I had newsgroup access) and I don't think I've ever posted a thing, even though I've considered posting questions about books and suchlike.Why?
Well, look at the posts on the group right now. Everything that I see that, from the subject line, looks like it might be on-topic - isn't. It's Thingie chatter, and that feels very off-putting when it comes to wandering in and asking a real question.
Shira:
Sure, it's Thingie chatter. But the thing is, when people post on-topic messages, they usually get a lot of responses. Some of the biggest threads I remember of late have been threads concerning the Endless, American Gods, etc. If you want to talk about Neil, talk about Neil!I realize that not everyone feels comfortable coming into a new group and posting a new message about something that interests them, but I think it's important to be able to put those fears behind.